Episode 21. Coercive control: Seeing a solicitor

Today I am joined by Rebecca McLeod, a family law solicitor from Watts McRae Lawyers. We discuss coercive control.

It is the kind of behavior that is intended to hurt, scare, intimidate, a threaten, or control.

I ask Rebecca questions to help illuminate what happens when you go to see a solicitor in the context of a coercive control relationship, as well as the importance of seeking support, and having appropriate safety planning in place.

You can leave relationships of this nature and you can do so safely. There is support out there.

I hope you enjoy.

Aspasia: Thank you for joining me today, Rebecca.

I became aware that last year new legislation was enacted in New South Wales around coercive control. And coercive control has become a much bigger topic of conversation also within my work in psychology.

it’s a form of abuse that takes place in relationships that it’s more sinister in nature, perhaps in that it can be harder to spot. It can be harder to know perhaps that you are experiencing it. It’s about something that happens over time and doesn’t necessarily involve one instance, like something we might think about as, physical violence.

It’s very different in that regard. And I think because of that, it’s taken a while, for all of us to be able to come up with some sort of definition or description, that allows us to Work with it, in a therapeutic way, or it sounds like even, to do something about it in a legal manner.

I’m wondering if you could talk us through what the legislation’s all about, . What is the problem that’s trying to be addressed?

yeah, of course. My understanding of the objectives of the introduction of the legislation was to protect people, and it only applies to people in domestic relationships where there is a degree of control. that is unacceptable and it impacts the way that people go about living their life.

So it’s, it, like you said, it’s not the black eye, but It’s thinking, I better not buy that brand of tampons because they’re too expensive and I might get crucified or questioned about it.

Yes. And this kind of thinking, being a part and parcel of how you operate in a relationship.

Rebecca: it’s living in an environment where, I mean one of the, seminars that I attended, a judge was talking about how best to draft your pleadings if you’re trying to plead a coercive control case. And she was saying that sometimes it’s the little things that really paint the picture. And it was that this particular wife, and I’m not suggesting that it can only be male to female, but she said.

I knew I could only use certain color pegs when hanging out the washing, and she was like, that was enough for me to understand the level of control. You can’t even pick a color peg without fear of retaliation.

Aspasia: the person who’s experiencing this in a relationship is having their.

ability to have choice, to have agency decision making, to be an individual, that’s being threatened by this person.

Aspasia (2): absolutely.

Rebecca: I mean, probably more, common examples would be financial control. I refer to it as sort of being kept on a long leash in the sense that

yes, you’ve got access to money, but the limit on the credit card is only paid down by $500 a week. And so you’re at the supermarket and you’re at the checkout and you go to tap the card and you think, shivers, is there gonna be enough on the card. so yes, there’s money, but it’s that constant oppressive feeling of is there enough money there?

Rebecca: I sort of describe that sort of coercive control or domestic violence that isn’t of the physical nature as the crumbs that make a cake. Where , like you’ve gotta put all those small incidents together.

Like pegs. Pegs in isolation sounds really trivial, and you’re like, who cares? But when you say, oh, it’s pegs plus i’m not allowed to wear certain things and I’m only allowed to associate with certain people and I’ve only got access to X amount in the bank account. You put all those crumbs together and it starts to form a cake.

Aspasia: It’s the fear component, like this is being maintained through fear, often is what makes it, in my mind, coercive control as opposed to maybe two people have different, ideas about finances and for whatever reason they don’t have very good communication skills.

True.

Rebecca: And that’s a really good point that you raised as well. And the Women’s Justice Service did a few seminars on the legislation being introduced, and the third seminar that they presented was on misidentification of being accused of coercive control. ’cause I think that that’s potentially what you were just touching upon to say where it’s kind of weaponized in a way to say, oh, you’ve put me on this budget of X dollars a week and that’s coercive control.

And it’s like, well, no, that’s just our financial reality like. I’d love to go on a holiday every week, but it’s just not within our means. And so that misidentification of coercive control is also equally important.

Aspasia: Yeah, absolutely. And it comes down to, this element of fear and whether or not a partner, believes that they have the ability to address.

These differences of opinion with their partner in a way that they’re going to be treated like A respected equal. Yeah. But that bringing up the topic is not going to lead to some form of further punishment or coercion or control.

Aspasia (2): Yeah.

Aspasia: when someone is in a coercive control relationship, it’s often maintained by this fear and this silencing and this very subtle and progressive undermining of their self-confidence and their self-worth

that happens slowly over time, which is part of what makes it hard to spot for the person experiencing it, but also people around them. And people can sort of become almost a shell of a person. But it happens very slowly. by the time that the person might identify it’s happening to them, usually their self-confidence, their self-worth has been so eroded they may have even taken on some of the,

perspectives of the partner. their reality is being played with by their partner. it might just be the easier position ultimately for them to accept some idea that this is either normal or this is all I deserve, or all I should expect.

Aspasia (2): Mm-hmm.

Aspasia: and it’s, it’s really sinister like that. And I wonder about someone in that situation, even though there is legislation now, how difficult it still must be for them in that moment to make a decision to seek support and to try and do something about it because of the fear, right?

Aspasia (2): Absolutely.

Aspasia: And the repercussions that they would imagine.

Rebecca: it’s not uncommon that it’s during an initial conference with a client that, I’m asking them to kind of air their personal life basically. I’m, asking them to share with me very personal details.

It’s not uncommon that when they say out loud. Or, you know, that example about being at the grocery store or whatever, and it’s saying it out loud that the tears start and you’re like, you get it now, now that you’re telling somebody else about it and you’re saying it out loud, they kind of process and he, how bad it is.

Aspasia: And they’re talking about it finally, I think, outside of the echo chamber. So what often happens is that, I think the relationship, the dynamic becomes one of, mostly relating with their partner, only about these matters. Mm-hmm. And not talking about it anywhere else.

And it just gets almost normalized.

Rebecca: And you and your marriage or your relationship is a personal sphere. So it’s like, I understand that. And thenthere’s a narrative or rhetoric that it shouldn’t be a matter of keeping up with the Joneses, so don’t compare yourself to other people.

And, you know, there’s a line obviously in between that where your reality check and say, oh, well this is my experience in my relationship. Is that appropriate? You know, going back to your point where you said having the legislation, sure it’s there, but having the courage to actually challenge the status quo.

That’s asking a lot of someone. And so it’s really important then in embarking on that journey that we have the scaffolding around them, that they’re supported through it, because it is gonna be a hard journey. It’s gonna be a scary journey, it’s gonna be nerve wracking. I know on the outside that they’ll be okay, but I’m not living it and it’s not my life.

So, making sure that, Ideally, you know, having professional and personal people to support them, like a friend, a family member, that’s invaluable to get through a process like that.

Aspasia: , I guess I’m thinking about a scenario where people would be coming to you maybe for a divorce.

and it’s clear that coercive control has been a part of their relationship. Is that something that’s taken into account in the divorcing process itself or something like, childcare, arrangements and has, has the introduction of this legislation changed that in any way?

Sure.

Rebecca: I guess it gives clients a different, jurisdiction or a different way to get a form of protection. Typically, whilst they’re in that phase of separated, but not yet having gotten their piece of the pie, because that’s a really dangerous and vulnerable phase because you’re challenging the status quo, and you’re saying, Hey, I’m not okay with this,

I want out, and I’m entitled to my piece of the pie. And plus I want the kids to come with me. And it’s a charged time. So, it, it helps in that regard because we can lean on the criminal jurisdiction, which is a cheaper and hopefully faster way of getting protection for the client in that phase of separated but not yet finalized your family law matters.

Because the police will run that matter for you, rather than paying your family law solicitor. Because the family law jurisdiction also has protective mechanisms. There’s personal injunctions that you can get, for example. We can seek interim financial orders to say they get access to this money

But you’re typically paying your lawyer to appear in the family law jurisdiction to get those orders for you. So it’s helpful in that, it’s a tool to help support the client, in the interim phase of finalizing a settlement.

Aspasia: That’s really clarifying.

So this legislation then this involves protection. Is that right? I guess I was thinking about this, like, this is legislation where someone gets charged with something and then gets a penalty

Rebecca: It’s not, it’s, it doesn’t give them money, it just gets them off their case basically.

Thank you. okay. (complex feelings)

Aspasia: Yes. And I think this whole discussion about the legislation just captures, what it is that is so dangerous about coercive control. On the one hand it can be so difficult to, gather all the crumbs together to show that picture. and it’s re-traumatizing for

Rebecca: people to do that.

That’s right.

Aspasia: And, I mean this is true of all kinds of, abusive relationships, not just coercive control, but I think too it can be, especially difficult in these, Intimate partner relationships because, often there are also feelings of love and warmth towards the person who is inflicting this on you.

and it can be really difficult to still notice those feelings at play. even when you are trying to advocate for yourself and get out. Yeah.

Rebecca: This is your lane. So I won’t step into it, but I’ll just comment to say it’s not uncommon that, even though a client when I’m sitting on the other side of the table and hearing them tell their story , it’s definitely been my experience that there is still compassion or I don’t know what the right emotion is. It, it’s, um, it’s tricky for people.

Aspasia: They’re complex emotions and I think when we’ve been with someone also for a period of time. and know them through all sorts of complex interactions. you come to see that, yeah, there are all different aspects of a person. Sometimes too for people that are in an abusive relationship of any nature, part of the way that they can cope if they feel trapped in that, is to really pay attention to the parts that are positive of this person.

It’s actually part of how they cope, because if they truly feel trapped and that there’s no other option, That’s what the fear and the erosion of self-confidence and the sort of playing around with reality does, then they need to find a way to at least make

day to day somewhat manageable, makes sense to them somehow. Why, why am I still here? And so often we can do that by latching onto the parts of the person that we do still care about or some desire to, protect that person or to work with them to help things to get better or, you know, there is a desire for us to make it good somehow.

Rebecca: and so I think that can also be a huge barrier for people to, trytake a step out of that relationship. Yeah, really, really complex. ‘Cause it would be terrifying. I agree. I try and say to clients that, to not minimize that feeling.

it’s completely legitimate feeling, but I know they’re gonna be okay. Without minimizing that it would be challenging, they feel really supported through the process. There is light at the end of the tunnel and there are solutions and there are professionals and people in your life that support you to change that status quo.

You don’t have to stay in it.

Aspasia: Yeah. And I really hear that and talking to you. it’s, really heartening to hear, You speak in a way that I can see that, you have that deep empathy and care. it’s lovely to know that there are lawyers out there like that.

Aspasia: Is there advice you would give someone who wants to seek support about this? Where are places they can go ?

Rebecca: Yeah. look, obviously a private solicitor is a starting point, preferably one that’s well experienced in family law and or criminal because the legislation that we’re talking about sits in the criminal realm.

so if the conversation is being had. In, conjunction with contemplating separation, that’s when you’d wanna talk to a family lawyer as well. Whereas if it’s a, well, I’m kind of prepared to stay in the relationship, but I would like it to be different. Then probably more a criminal lawyer. and or the community legal justice centers.

like I said, the Women’s Legal Justice Center did a number of very helpful webinars, so I could share that link.

Aspasia: so can people call the police? Is that part of what we’re talking about? Yes. Yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely. they can pull the police. Talking to the police in the first instance, there’s no cost associated to that. That is a jurisdiction. They’re meant to act on it. Gonna come across as a bit jaded, but, my experience with other clients has been really hit or miss with which particular police officer you get.

So absolutely, can you contact the police, but if. It’s not an experience that produces an outcome that you are happy or content with. Like it, it might be that you have to accept the reality of it and it is what it is. But you can then still go down the solicitor

Aspasia: path.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, trying to be obviously cost effective in the first instance. Yes. What you’re saying is if you have the resources, yes, then going to a solicitor might be the, the best first step.

and unless obviously you feel some sense of being in imminent danger.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Absolutely.

I can imagine someone thinking about going to see a solicitor and then being concerned about how their partner is gonna find out about this and sort of the safety implications of that.

Yeah. And that, I guess is part of, um, when speaking with a client around, I refer to it as dropping the bomb, like communicating with them that the relationship’s over or they’re challenging the status quo or whatever it is. Part of the strategy around that is making sure that there’s a safety plan in place.

Like we’re not just gonna send a letter to the other party and then say to the, the client, oh, all right, go home to them. It needs to be. More thought out than that if the client is worried. So that’s part of what you

Aspasia: do with them. Rebecca, you would actually think out with a client Yeah, what’s gonna happen here and Yeah,

Rebecca: like, like physically, where are you going to be?

How much money do you have access to? Where are the kids gonna be? Because

Aspasia: I mean, that’s great. That’s so great to know. Yeah. so you do that, you sit there and you do that with them, you plan with them.

Rebecca: Yeah. If the client is sufficiently worried, like I’m always in the client’s hands, obviously, but if they’re sufficiently worried, a no communication ever is sent to the other party without the client’s explicit consent, but particularly for that, drop the bomb.

if there’s safety concerns. I absolutely work through the client to have a safety plan in place. typically in the legal world, you’re meant to communicate in advance and explain your position and, be open and reasonable

However, sometimes it’s more appropriate to do a dash and run and say, okay, when he is he or she not gonna be home, get your staff move out. Then we send the letter saying, we’ve gone, this is what’s happening. so that’s part and parcel of unpacking that with the client before dropping that bomb.

because that’s a really vulnerable and stressful time for them, and they need to feel really as comfortable and supported in that very, vulnerable phase.

Aspasia: Yeah, definitely

Aspasia: the whole. Experience of being in any form of abusive relationship, is highly traumatising And there’s a manner in which coercive control because it can be this very, progressive eroding set of behaviors that occurs over a long stretch of time. it has a real capacity to, create particular effects of trauma, that then, can be really hard to work on, on the other side of it.

Aspasia: I think this really is an area where law and psychology overlap in important ways. and it’s really nice to have this dialogue with you and to get more of a sense of what you do on your end too.

Rebecca: it would be completely remiss to not acknowledge emotionally and psychologically that what that client’s going through. my lane is to provide legal advice and it would be insensitive to not address on an emotional level, but also that’s not what my qualifications are.

Part of that conversation with the client is to talk to them and say, okay, well what’s your support scaffolding through this process? And that’s absolutely, if they’ve got the means to do it, speaking to a psychologist is gonna be invaluable throughout that process.

Aspasia: Absolutely. And I think too, at least from what I’ve seen with clients is on the other side of getting out of a relationship of this nature. there can also be, this very complex set of emotions that someone’s left with.

It’s not necessarily relief or joy or free sort of ideas that people are often telling them they’re going to experience. On the other side, it can be a really.

Aspasia (2): Huge

Aspasia: range of emotions and oftentimes lots of the feelings that you never had the chance to have during the relationship that were just kept in check so you could survive.

They can often come up as well on the other side when you finally have some space and you feel safer. And so, I think it’s worth holding that in mind too, that, obviously the getting out is highly important or at least seeking legal support, to put protections in place is really important. but it’s also anticipating what you might need

On the other side of that too, and how you’re going to take care of yourself on the other side of, that’s really important.

Rebecca: Absolutely. and that’s been inconsistent with, my experience that there is a psychological journey that’s going on as well as a legal one. And, Why it’s helpful to have all the right people around you to support you through that process.

Aspasia: Please don’t ever worry that you are, you’re not in your lane because I can tell by the way you speak that you would be a really grounding, safe, wonderful presence to be around when someone’s going through something like this.

And that matters so much because I think that if someone is so consumed by fear and so eroded in self-confidence and self-worth, that even if they do reach out to a solicitor, if that first instance is too cold or you know, that’s gonna turn them off and then people aren’t going to seek help.

So,

Rebecca: oh, I appreciate that kindness. Thank you. And you establish rapport so quickly and so easily, so I’m sure the same goes in reverse.

Aspasia: It was lovely to speak to you. Thank you for your time. Likewise./

Thanks for joining us for this episode of 10 Minute Mood. A reminder that you can call 1-800-RESPECT. That is 1 807 3 7 7 3 2. This is a 24 7 support line free of charge anytime.

10 Minute Mood is a podcast hosted by clinical psychologists from Sydney City Psychology. Often in conversation with other experts in the field. About all things, mental health, wellness, and mood. Presented in bite-size 10 minute episodes, we hope that you can gain an understanding about each topic area in a short amount of time. Perhaps something will spark a particular area of interest for you. As always with podcasts, please treat everything you hear with a grain of salt.

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